Right to Life Being Preached by a Sinner?
My brother shared a video of the first sitting President to attend a March for Life event giving a speech at said event. The speech was wonderfully supportive of babies' right to life and I think it's historic and precedent-setting that a President has made this pro-life move, regardless of his motives. Yet, there was one gentleman who kept trying to dismiss the pro-life message and draw focus away from it by trying to refocus on the person of the President. It led to some interesting dialog but gave me an opportunity to dive back into a question to which I have yet, after years of asking, to receive an actual answer or any focused discussion. You can decide whether this ended differently.
Ray's words will appear in plain text, mine in blue.
Ray: It's called pandering and it doesn't mean he is a good and moral man. Trump once declared in a 1999 interview that “I am pro-choice in every respect.”
(Nevermind that people can change. As another person in this discussion mentioned, Abby Johnson was also once "pro-choice" and supported women's rights to abortions. Now she is the leading voice in the Pro-Life Movement.)
Dave: Agreed [with a prior comment that this isn't about Trump; it's about "the message, and the office from which it is delivered"]. That the President would offer a voice for the voiceless and support the right to life of babies at this march is historic and, I hope, precedent-setting. I have yet to see a politician with a clean past, so I see no reason to dwell on that when I can, instead, focus on the fact that the right to life is being professed from all levels of politics.
David Manthei, One issue does not make a President or a Church. What about the President’s actions harming immigrant children?
What do you mean by “harming “? Do you mean “dismemberment in their mother’s womb”? Or perhaps “scorching their skin and innards with an injection of salt solution into their amniotic sacs”? Or “being sucked through a tube with blades at the mouth to cut their bodies into manageable pieces”?
I’ll make you a deal: I’ll entertain Trump’s wrongdoings with you if you can reason with me on this: if a human has no right to be born alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
Where you seem to want to make this about Trump, I am making it about a right to life, from conception to natural death.
David Manthei, just so you understand that you are being played by a real estate salesman who doesn’t have an ounce of the conviction that you do on this issue.
Ray, you seem to be under the impression that I am all “Trump is my hero” and the like. Meanwhile, I could care less about party politics and, instead, I am simply excited that someone in the Oval Office has made a public stand for babies in the womb. I don’t understand why you keep trying to pull the focus away from the right to life, and instead keep making this about Trump. But I did notice you decided not to engage the actual topic.
So, Ray, tell me DO you believe in a baby’s right to be born alive?
And if not, if that child had no right to be alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
(After taking a look at his FB profile and seeing other discussions with other folks, it seemed that some clarification would be helpful.)
I'll see if I can ease your mind here. I don't like Trump, and I have argued with his vehement supporters in the past regarding his erroneous ways.
Now then, back to the issue at hand: So, Ray, tell me DO you believe in a baby’s right to be born alive?
And if not, if that child had no right to be alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
David Manthei, does your fight for the sanctity of life extend to the death penalty?
Ray, Yep.
That was a direct answer to your question. Now I'd appreciate an answer to what I asked you (third time now):
DO you believe in a baby’s right to be born alive?
And if not, if that child had no right to be alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
(Quoting text from a co-discussion going on in the same thread):
Ray, [you said] "I don't agree that the death penalty depends on circumstances. Pro-life means all human life including criminals."
Sure, but let's not pretend we are comparing apples to apples, there, because we're not. Aborted babies and Criminals on death row (or even wrongly convicted innocent people) have a critical difference: the right to be born in the first place, and a chance at life. Pretending that the circumstances there are equal just makes our fight to end the death penalty look disingenuous and ignorant.
David Manthei, to go with your point below, no. Am I a bad person? Am I going to Hell?
I don't know what you are talking about in that last comment. You said, "no", but it was a 2-part question:
1 - DO you believe in a baby’s right to be born alive?
2 - And if not, if that child had no right to be alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
So, if your "no" was that you do NOT believe in a baby's right to be born alive, why do any other rights matter?
David Manthei, I thought it best to sleep on this subject and attend Mass before responding. Here is what I believe. God gave Man free will and a basic code we should live by. Man decides what laws and rights that our society lives by. Man is allowed choices. The 5th Commandment is thou shall not kill, period. But Man has chosen to allow killing to punish crimes and to kill during war. As a believer in free will, I agree there should be a death penalty and we can send young men and women to die on a battlefield to protect our rights and freedoms. So no, I don't believe in fetal rights. That's your endgame here, right? I believe in fighting for the poor, the sick, and the oppressed who are already out of their mothers womb There are currently over 350,000 adoptable children in our system right now. Do you fight so hard for their lives?
[snip text from co-discussion]
If Jesus was amongst us now, what do you think his opinion would be of Mr. Trump?
Happy Sunday, Ray. Yes, I fight for the born and unborn. And yes, God gave us free will and the ability to come up with laws and rights. (Careful with your slippery logic, though, because that same logic was used to justify slavery and the holocaust). God holds us accountable for the rules we make.
But you still are choosing to avoid answering the question. Why do any rights of the living matter, if we don’t even have an inherent right to be alive?
And what makes you think we’ll get a free pass from God on dismissing His Commands on the basis of “but hey, God, you gave us free will”?
And “free will”?? You mock your own claim because you pretend you extend that free will to all men, but deny all men (in their infancy) the right to live and thus exercise it.
David Manthei, I have answered your question. Maybe not the way you want with the red herring argument. I already pointed out that we executed men for stealing horses. Maybe I am wrong and we are all subject to damnation by God but I believe my God is benevolent and forgiving. If you believe abortionists are doomed by God, why not wait for his judgement?
And what about Trump's hypocrisy? You are skating by that?
Well, it’s no red herring because having an inherent right to be alive is key to having other rights. Without it, no other rights matter.
You did a lot of work to dance around it, more than any other I have asked. But answer it, you did not. But hey, you take your argument to Christ and let Him tell you His opinions. 😉
As for what Christ thinks about Trump, I’m more concerned with His opinion of me. And I think we should all have that concern instead of worrying about what He thinks of our neighbor.
David Manthei, I disagree with you that you must have a fetal right to life or the others don't matter. That's my opinion. Our country is great because I have that right just you have yours. Unless you wish to waive that right since it doesn't matter?
So help me understand. Scenario: A homeless man wants assistance, and believes he has a right to food. Billy approaches him and says, “well sir, you don’t actually have the right to be alive...so...it would make more sense for me to cure your hunger permanently by killing you rather than string you along cruelly by giving you temporary sustenance”. Why would Billy be logically and ethically wrong?
David Manthei, I'd love to continue this with you but I have a tile floor to complete today. I admire your conviction but going back to my original comment, Trump is taking advantage of your convictions for his political advancement, otherwise he would have attended the March when he first became president. vaya con dios mi amigo.
Ray, thanks for the dialog. I would love to continue as well, and if you ever get free time, my personal email is equesgladiostricto@gmail.com. Going back to the original intent of the video [my brother] shared: fetuses are baby humans, just in early development, and all humans have an inherent right to life; and it's refreshing that a sitting President finally had the nads to stand up with the March for Life and declare this from his Office, despite his shady past.
My brother ended up summing it up quite nicely (keep in mind there were other discussions going on besides just between Ray and me).
"Hey, guys since it seems this discussion may be ending, in all seriousness I'd like to point out that indeed, regardless of a belief, that life begins at conception (basic medical and biological fact). The Catholic Church's teaching is clear on the sanctity of life. So indeed it is grave matter to support abortion, and such material support with full knowledge...would constitute mortal sin."
Ray's words will appear in plain text, mine in blue.
Ray: It's called pandering and it doesn't mean he is a good and moral man. Trump once declared in a 1999 interview that “I am pro-choice in every respect.”
(Nevermind that people can change. As another person in this discussion mentioned, Abby Johnson was also once "pro-choice" and supported women's rights to abortions. Now she is the leading voice in the Pro-Life Movement.)
Dave: Agreed [with a prior comment that this isn't about Trump; it's about "the message, and the office from which it is delivered"]. That the President would offer a voice for the voiceless and support the right to life of babies at this march is historic and, I hope, precedent-setting. I have yet to see a politician with a clean past, so I see no reason to dwell on that when I can, instead, focus on the fact that the right to life is being professed from all levels of politics.
David Manthei, One issue does not make a President or a Church. What about the President’s actions harming immigrant children?
What do you mean by “harming “? Do you mean “dismemberment in their mother’s womb”? Or perhaps “scorching their skin and innards with an injection of salt solution into their amniotic sacs”? Or “being sucked through a tube with blades at the mouth to cut their bodies into manageable pieces”?
I’ll make you a deal: I’ll entertain Trump’s wrongdoings with you if you can reason with me on this: if a human has no right to be born alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
Where you seem to want to make this about Trump, I am making it about a right to life, from conception to natural death.
David Manthei, just so you understand that you are being played by a real estate salesman who doesn’t have an ounce of the conviction that you do on this issue.
Ray, you seem to be under the impression that I am all “Trump is my hero” and the like. Meanwhile, I could care less about party politics and, instead, I am simply excited that someone in the Oval Office has made a public stand for babies in the womb. I don’t understand why you keep trying to pull the focus away from the right to life, and instead keep making this about Trump. But I did notice you decided not to engage the actual topic.
So, Ray, tell me DO you believe in a baby’s right to be born alive?
And if not, if that child had no right to be alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
(After taking a look at his FB profile and seeing other discussions with other folks, it seemed that some clarification would be helpful.)
I'll see if I can ease your mind here. I don't like Trump, and I have argued with his vehement supporters in the past regarding his erroneous ways.
Now then, back to the issue at hand: So, Ray, tell me DO you believe in a baby’s right to be born alive?
And if not, if that child had no right to be alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
David Manthei, does your fight for the sanctity of life extend to the death penalty?
Ray, Yep.
That was a direct answer to your question. Now I'd appreciate an answer to what I asked you (third time now):
DO you believe in a baby’s right to be born alive?
And if not, if that child had no right to be alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
(Quoting text from a co-discussion going on in the same thread):
Ray, [you said] "I don't agree that the death penalty depends on circumstances. Pro-life means all human life including criminals."
Sure, but let's not pretend we are comparing apples to apples, there, because we're not. Aborted babies and Criminals on death row (or even wrongly convicted innocent people) have a critical difference: the right to be born in the first place, and a chance at life. Pretending that the circumstances there are equal just makes our fight to end the death penalty look disingenuous and ignorant.
David Manthei, to go with your point below, no. Am I a bad person? Am I going to Hell?
I don't know what you are talking about in that last comment. You said, "no", but it was a 2-part question:
1 - DO you believe in a baby’s right to be born alive?
2 - And if not, if that child had no right to be alive in the first place, why do any other rights matter?
So, if your "no" was that you do NOT believe in a baby's right to be born alive, why do any other rights matter?
David Manthei, I thought it best to sleep on this subject and attend Mass before responding. Here is what I believe. God gave Man free will and a basic code we should live by. Man decides what laws and rights that our society lives by. Man is allowed choices. The 5th Commandment is thou shall not kill, period. But Man has chosen to allow killing to punish crimes and to kill during war. As a believer in free will, I agree there should be a death penalty and we can send young men and women to die on a battlefield to protect our rights and freedoms. So no, I don't believe in fetal rights. That's your endgame here, right? I believe in fighting for the poor, the sick, and the oppressed who are already out of their mothers womb There are currently over 350,000 adoptable children in our system right now. Do you fight so hard for their lives?
[snip text from co-discussion]
If Jesus was amongst us now, what do you think his opinion would be of Mr. Trump?
Happy Sunday, Ray. Yes, I fight for the born and unborn. And yes, God gave us free will and the ability to come up with laws and rights. (Careful with your slippery logic, though, because that same logic was used to justify slavery and the holocaust). God holds us accountable for the rules we make.
But you still are choosing to avoid answering the question. Why do any rights of the living matter, if we don’t even have an inherent right to be alive?
And what makes you think we’ll get a free pass from God on dismissing His Commands on the basis of “but hey, God, you gave us free will”?
And “free will”?? You mock your own claim because you pretend you extend that free will to all men, but deny all men (in their infancy) the right to live and thus exercise it.
David Manthei, I have answered your question. Maybe not the way you want with the red herring argument. I already pointed out that we executed men for stealing horses. Maybe I am wrong and we are all subject to damnation by God but I believe my God is benevolent and forgiving. If you believe abortionists are doomed by God, why not wait for his judgement?
And what about Trump's hypocrisy? You are skating by that?
Well, it’s no red herring because having an inherent right to be alive is key to having other rights. Without it, no other rights matter.
You did a lot of work to dance around it, more than any other I have asked. But answer it, you did not. But hey, you take your argument to Christ and let Him tell you His opinions. 😉
As for what Christ thinks about Trump, I’m more concerned with His opinion of me. And I think we should all have that concern instead of worrying about what He thinks of our neighbor.
David Manthei, I disagree with you that you must have a fetal right to life or the others don't matter. That's my opinion. Our country is great because I have that right just you have yours. Unless you wish to waive that right since it doesn't matter?
So help me understand. Scenario: A homeless man wants assistance, and believes he has a right to food. Billy approaches him and says, “well sir, you don’t actually have the right to be alive...so...it would make more sense for me to cure your hunger permanently by killing you rather than string you along cruelly by giving you temporary sustenance”. Why would Billy be logically and ethically wrong?
David Manthei, I'd love to continue this with you but I have a tile floor to complete today. I admire your conviction but going back to my original comment, Trump is taking advantage of your convictions for his political advancement, otherwise he would have attended the March when he first became president. vaya con dios mi amigo.
Ray, thanks for the dialog. I would love to continue as well, and if you ever get free time, my personal email is equesgladiostricto@gmail.com. Going back to the original intent of the video [my brother] shared: fetuses are baby humans, just in early development, and all humans have an inherent right to life; and it's refreshing that a sitting President finally had the nads to stand up with the March for Life and declare this from his Office, despite his shady past.
My brother ended up summing it up quite nicely (keep in mind there were other discussions going on besides just between Ray and me).
"Hey, guys since it seems this discussion may be ending, in all seriousness I'd like to point out that indeed, regardless of a belief, that life begins at conception (basic medical and biological fact). The Catholic Church's teaching is clear on the sanctity of life. So indeed it is grave matter to support abortion, and such material support with full knowledge...would constitute mortal sin."
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